Curse

frojack · Mar 29, 2007, 11:01 AM // 11:01

I've concluded after reading all of this that very few people here have a clue... How can you judge anything from a few bit's of information about a prospective design?

"That's going to suck! I don't like this already!" What's going to suck? What don't you like? What the hell are you even talking about?

The simple fact is I feel confident in saying that I doubt even the designers fully know what they want to do yet, never mind have and kind of design goal lset in stone.
Almost 2 friggin' years before an open beta even begins. 2 years... Can any of you even fathom how long a period that is in terms of game development? If you can then you'll realise how completely pointless all this conjecture is concerning 'potential' design ideas...

Thallandor · Mar 29, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

who knows maybe it will be like:

GW1+ God of War = GW2

Theus · Mar 29, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

So..One skill that has one description and performs one act,is complicated moreso than one skill that has 3 different actions depending on your characters ingame stance (Running/Standing Still/Jumping)?

...Yeah.

Rhedd · Mar 29, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I don't think I see what you mean here. How will SC3 be changed at all by the release of SC4: Return of the Cervantes-Cart? Personally, I hate Tekken 4 & 5, but I still play Tag Tournament like it's going out of style. Nothing will change that. I didn't get pissed when 4 & 5 came out and I didn't like it. I just didn't buy it or play it (that much).

Maybe I didn't see what you meant. I don't think you saw what I meant, either, though.

Let's drop the SC illustration and say it straight;

Some people play GW because they love the PvP, or co-op PvE action.

After GW2 comes out, there will not be nearly as many people playing GW1. (Unless GW2 really bombs. ^_^) Tell me that will make GW1 multiplayer better.

Some people play GW because they love exploring the beautiful world, and finding new fantastic places and the new creatures that live there.

After GW2 comes out, there will not be any more expansions for GW1. I wouldn't hold my breath for endless free Sorrow's Furnace-like updates, either.

So what I'm saying is that unlike Soul Calibur, regardless of our lighthearted example, your reasons for enjoying GW can be completely destroyed by sequels, whether you buy them or not, even though you were very happy with the game that you did purchase.

The new game either has to be good enough that you gladly move on, or you're forced to stop playing a game you were perfectly happy with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Regardless, I don't see how changing how the skills work, or adding jumping, or having persistent zones can be at all likened to changing a fighting game into a racing game. It's a different game to be sure, it's not a different game genre.

Actually, I'd go out on a limb here and say that, regardless of labels, games like WoW and City of Heroes are a completely different genre than Guild Wars. Dwarves don't make a genre, gameplay mechanics do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Besides, it's not only conjecture, it's entirely based on a vague quote. I have faith that Anet will do it right, and not willy-nilly like the terrible example I gave. Do it to it, guys!

There are too many "vague quotes" floating around at the moment, to be sure. I seriously think Anet needs to step back, look at how the fanbase is reacting, and rethink their approach to the release of information.

I am glad you have faith, though. Blind faith does make life easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

2 years... Can any of you even fathom how long a period that is in terms of game development? If you can then you'll realise how completely pointless all this conjecture is concerning 'potential' design ideas...

I, for one, can, since I've worked on more top-name games than you have fingers. ^_^

You're right, it's a very long time.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again; If you have an opinion on a game, voice it now, while the game is still in people's heads, not finished and on the shelves.

Nobody will listen to you then.

frojack · Mar 29, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Oh so you have industry experience? Good. So you undoubtedly know what designers are like in terms of pragmatic thinking (and also their schizophrenic tendencies in the early stages). I don't think there's much to worry about.

The game that has so far been described is a 'different' beast to Guild Wars. While the conceptual whispers may appal the community, nobody can deny that their context is still Guild Wars. The beast that will be Guild Wars 2 is an unknown quantity.

Concerning voicing of opinions: Well... How many people are discerning enough in their vision to know what they will like or dislike? Especially in an environment that is currently vacuous. Sounds like an easy question but it's not and I'd wager not that many. Then there's the designers again. As you say, you've worked in the industry so I'd imagine you know what they're like. I'll leave it at that...

arcanemacabre · Mar 29, 2007, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhedd

Maybe I didn't see what you meant. I don't think you saw what I meant, either, though.

Let's drop the SC illustration and say it straight;

Some people play GW because they love the PvP, or co-op PvE action.

After GW2 comes out, there will not be nearly as many people playing GW1. (Unless GW2 really bombs. ^_^) Tell me that will make GW1 multiplayer better.

Some people play GW because they love exploring the beautiful world, and finding new fantastic places and the new creatures that live there.

After GW2 comes out, there will not be any more expansions for GW1. I wouldn't hold my breath for endless free Sorrow's Furnace-like updates, either.

So what I'm saying is that unlike Soul Calibur, regardless of our lighthearted example, your reasons for enjoying GW can be completely destroyed by sequels, whether you buy them or not, even though you were very happy with the game that you did purchase.

The new game either has to be good enough that you gladly move on, or you're forced to stop playing a game you were perfectly happy with.

So use the perfect example of Everquest and it's sequel. There is still people playing Everquest, despite 2 being out, and they're happily paying a monthly fee even. That pretty much proves that there will still be people playing GW1 no matter how good or how bad GW2 is. Whether you or I enjoy either that much really doesn't matter - point is, GW1 will not die, and you can enjoy it anytime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhedd

Actually, I'd go out on a limb here and say that, regardless of labels, games like WoW and City of Heroes are a completely different genre than Guild Wars. Dwarves don't make a genre, gameplay mechanics do.

OK... I was talking about mechanic. IE, fighting game vs racing game, the big difference? Mechanics, how it plays. Hate to tell ya, but Guild Wars plays like an MMO. CoH is as different from WoW as it is from GW and all vise-versa, but they are all in the same genre, ORPG, or Online Role-Playing Game. Sure, the details are different, the souls of the games are different, but they are in the same genre compared to say, fighting games, strategy games, racing games, sports games, etc. Dwarves have nothing to do with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhedd

I am glad you have faith, though. Blind faith does make life easier.

I have faith in them because they have a legacy to uphold. They have fortunes on the line, now. I trust that they are not baffoon enough to ruin all of that. I also have all of their back work to prove that they know what they're doing. That's not exactly blind faith.

Besides, is it better to shuffle through life worrying about everything, whether it has truth to it or not? But meh, to each their own.

Zallya · Mar 29, 2007, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

"Flame Blast"
If used against a target at long range, it sends out a wave of fire that does xx damage.
If used against a target at mid range, it sends out a wave of fire that does xx damage and deals xx damage to foes adjacent to target.
If used against an adjacent target, it flares out and strikes all adjacent foes for xx damage.
If jumping while using Flame Blast, it deals xx more damage to target, and xx less damage to any adjacent targets hit by the spell.
If running while using Flame Blast, you leave a trail of fire in your tracks in the next 3 seconds that deals xx damage per second for 10 seconds to all foes that are in the trail.
If crouching while using Flame Blast, you hit all nearby foes for xx damage (less than the adjacent damage)
etc...

And basically, this would be the effects of the skill, whereas the description on the skill would say something like:

"Flame Blast" - 15e (or whatever) 2c 20r - You ignite the air around you, creating waves of fire.

When I read that news, that's the sort of thing I understood he meant. The skill, itself, is simple in description so anyone will be able to pick it up and use it, and everyone will figure out their own favorite usage for the skill.

To give a warrior example:
"Axe Rage"
<insert whatever energy/recharge/activation/whatever GW2 has here>
A furious Axe assault.

Now, anyone can go out and try using that, and as they play, they discover:
Using it while attacking an enemy: Several fast, consecutive axe attacks for +X damage
Using it while running: Think cyclone axe as it used to be
Using it while jumping, and close enough to your enemy: A swift falling chop that can cripple/knockdown your target and does +X damage

If you think similarly with a hammer type weapon, the jump attack may be an AoE knockdown shockwave of some sort.

With a sword, the run attack could be a thrust that trips and cripples your target.

Basically, this system would retain variety and complexity, while not being overly complicated to just go out and use the skills. And if I recall, it was said somewhere that they know people want to be playing an RPG, so it's not going to be an action game in any way - how would pushing that skill while jumping turn GW into an action game any more than needing quick reflexes for interrupts, and manually dodging arrows?

Of course, it's all speculation at this point, but that's the sort of thing I gathered from what he said.

clawofcrimson · Mar 29, 2007, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhed

I've said it once, and I'll say it again; If you have an opinion on a game, voice it now, while the game is still in people's heads, not finished and on the shelves.
...

Now this is QFT, besides I did not even start this thread to be a 'GW2 is DOOMED' discussion... but rather just to discuss the direction of the playstyle of the game, which I think GW players would like to speculate/discuss/ or even complain if they want to... no harm in that... It makes the time at work go by fast.

we do have a long way from beta and I will buy the game no matter what anet decides anyway.

a 'jade empire' Gw actually sounds pretty sweet. We'll see if its worth the wait.

lyra_song · Mar 29, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhedd

I've said it once, and I'll say it again; If you have an opinion on a game, voice it now, while the game is still in people's heads, not finished and on the shelves.

Nobody will listen to you then.

Yes its good we all are speculating and voicing opinions on what the direction of GW could be.

We have a long way to go towards GW2 and a rich and deep well of constructive (and sometimes just silly) ideas that we as a community must continue to tap. :3

But i still would like people to hold their reservations about it "going to suck" or "going to rock", since those kind of blanket statements tend to be baseless and non-productive.

Bryant Again · Mar 29, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

who knows maybe it will be like:

GW1+ God of War = GW2

That would be almost as cool as the Unreal Tournament sound mod.

lyra_song · Mar 29, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Gears of War + GW = GW2 maybe?

The whole "contextual function" all purpose button in Gears of War (the same button is used for ducking, running, climbing, opening doors, depending on whats going on, the button's function changes) could possibly implemented, as the others have stated, into the skill system of GW.

HalPlantagenet · Mar 29, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

One of the things that struck me when I moved from COH to GW was how much more interesting the interaction was. COH had become a grind as much as anything because the goals, pace and interactions were so narrow and constant. In contrast, even Pre-searing GW had surprising changes of pace and context: sometimes it felt frantic, often it provided periods of almost bucolic wandering. All of which made the experience more interesting and compelling. I sensed that the developers had a much better sense of what made a continually interesting MMORP environment. It was so much more imaginatively engaging. And, from a historical point of view, it made sense: the GW game designers had much more experience than the COH designers at that time.

The current GW has some significant issues, skill balance among them. Nevertheless, I don't think that "institutional" knowledge that has made GW1 successful has been lost. While I found the Wired article of interest, my sense is that there is too little there to make any kind of inference as to what we'll see. However, the article did good service if only in motivating this thread which I suspect may prove useful to the dev.s

My abstraction from the section about "emergent complexity" is that they want players to gain depth and breadth from play, not just from careful study and deductive reasoning. That doesn't necessarily preclude the latter. It could mean that they will be working to make skill effects much more comprehensible, which is not necessarily a bad thing. In GW1, build construction is often the most interesting part of an endeavor. I wouldn't mind at all if actual play proved equally challenging.

Failure is always a possibility. But so are moments when paradigms shift and extraordinary acheivement is possible.

If GW2 turns out to be the latter I will probably forgive them for deciding to make the Asura mini-pet the first thing we saw of GW2.

Dj Tano · Mar 29, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

The more I hear about GW2, the more I try to like it but find it harder and harder to.

Ditto.

I think that any game that does not have set rules, is a game thats going to die very fast.

Alleji · Mar 29, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

If he thinks skill descriptions are too complicated, he hasn't played Magic. In fact, I often found that skills descriptions in GW omit details for the sake of simplicity, resulting in vagueness when you try to understand how the skill works in detail.

Take aftercast, for example. Ok, I can accept not mentioning the regular 0.75s aftercast, but ffs, write it out on spells that have an irregular aftercast! How am I supposed to know that Flame Burst, Frozen Burst and 2 out of the 3 wards have an increased aftercast? Where does it say that Shadow Prison has 0 aftercast?

The armor ignoring damage and damage types are pretty inconsistent as well. Many skills don't specify the type of damage they deal. Obsidian Flame, anyone? (No, it's not earth damage. It behaves like shadow damage).

The subtle differences between "takes X damage" and "Y deals X damage" (First template always implies armor ignoring damage, whereas the second one does so occasionally)

Lastly, random idiosyncracises like "You ride the lightning to target foe". Now, is "riding the lightning" a teleport or a shadow step? What difference does it make? You drop items when you shadow step, but not when you teleport. Also, you can teleport to inaccessible areas while you can't shadow step there. (I still don't know which one RtL is because the skill sucks so much I never bothered to test it)

So... um... yeah. GW2 should be more precise, not less.

AJD · Mar 29, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

It sounds to me from that comment, whether it will be in the game at the end, that Anet seeks to Dumb Down GW. This does not bode well for the community that they will attract or for many players that can read and have decent reading comprehension.

That is from just one comment the guy made. It is almost obvious to me that they are just blowing smoke up peoples asses right now to garner interest.

Bryant Again · Mar 29, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Thinking about it, thsi new combat system sounds like it will actually take "skill" to play it, and not actual skills on your bar.

Again, it's too early too say, but it sounds fun.

MagicWarrior · Mar 29, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

If this means all of the skills will have to be "discovered" through gameplay and we'll have no descriptions - then this sounds like a lot of work (memory-wise especially).

However, if anyone has played ONI before... I thought it was kind of cool how you could learn how to do a round-house kick... and then learn to do a flying kick... and then learn to do a double or triple kick. If it's something like that... then I'm all for it.

clawofcrimson · Mar 29, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

I wonder if it will remove auto-attacking.... I certainly hope not...not on a keyboard anyway...

wynoski · Mar 29, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by bug_out

AS much as I hate to say it, if using skils in the game comes down to button mashing, a la Street Fighter, I won't be playing it.

Hopefully it won't be like that, cuz I am really looking forward to GW2.

Amen...shuddering to remember all the combinations in MK2 to get a fatality...if I have to time jump, forward arrow, f1...I will be very dissappointed...

Bryant Again · Mar 29, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by wynoski

Amen...shuddering to remember all the combinations in MK2 to get a fatality...if I have to time jump, forward arrow, f1...I will be very dissappointed...

I think it'll be more like Oblivion, if anything:

Move Right + Attack = Disarm
Move Forward + Attack = Charge Attack

Maybe things along those lines. It would be pretty silly to have to press "1-1-2-click" to do a move.